Comments on Want to be a free thinker but still a nice person: Ending Fat Talk one anonymous post-it at a time

I found this site using [url=http://google.com]goo...

2009-11-12T03:19:50.695-08:00

I found this site using [url=http://google.com]google.com[/url] And i want to thank you for your work. You have done really very good site. Great work, great site! Thank you!

Sorry for offtopic

I think GW has made a good point. (By the way, I t...

2009-06-29T09:12:01.958-07:00

I think GW has made a good point. (By the way, I thought of anther possible meaning for his/her initials---Global Warming?)

Someone in a comment a few days ago mentioned the Fallacy of Degree, and I think maybe that's applicable here? Simply because one is mindful of weight, fitness, grooming, fashion and general maintenance does NOT necessarily mean she/he has been hopelessly brainwashed (in a diabolical plot to "marginalize.") Maybe they just enjoy looking their best?

And it's absolutely true, or so I seem to observe, that men are sized up by their potential as providers. Not always, but...pretty generally.

GW's very wise conclusion that none of this is absolute, but rather a wide, wide general spectrum, seems reasonable to me. There are exceptions all the time, and somewhere between the dramatic extremes of Shallow Evil Man Marries Bimbo For Boobs/ Shallow Evil Woman Marries Ugly Man for Millions lie...most unions. We all (male and female) bring our offerings (looks, education, income, personality, whatever) into the marketplace, and somehow we all get sorted out and matched with someone who meets our needs, and most of our criteria.

Those Post-It notes on the mirrors---awwwww, how sweet. Far nicer than scrawling on the loo walls with a permanent marker. But how long will it take for more cynical messages to begin appearing? As Evelyn Waugh advised Nancy Mitford in a letter, "Dress better, and catch a better man." :):):)

I don't think men are 'marginalized' a...

2009-06-29T03:34:25.285-07:00

I don't think men are 'marginalized' as if you make a lot of money, society loves you and you run the place. But pressurized, yes. That's one of the reasons I have to keep working even though last week I almost went into a coma -- don't want poor Mel to shoulder the burden all by himself.

I didn't remember Mel asserting that marriage is a property transaction. Must query him on that sometime.

Are men marginalized by the pressure put on them t...

2009-06-29T02:57:45.468-07:00

Are men marginalized by the pressure put on them to make the most money they can to get the best mate possible?

This supports Mel's earlier assertion that marriage is a property transaction. Men want money for sex and women want sex for money. It's just an exchange of goods in the end.

Thankfully this mutual vanity exists in degrees variable enough to allow most of us to find someone to tolerate us.

E, good point, perhaps like the relationship betwe...

2009-06-29T02:42:02.534-07:00

E, good point, perhaps like the relationship between a drug dealer and his junkie I suppose?

Lisa, no not at all, I agree most of the apparent ...

2009-06-29T02:29:17.673-07:00

Lisa, no not at all, I agree most of the apparent pressure comes from men (or at least what our society portrays most men thinking) I would argue that women place a greater importance on it though, although men have some of the same pressures more lately.

Echoing the point you make, I'm asking is this like an evolutionary arms race of the sort you see between peacocks and peahens, is it competition between women or is is societal pressure (or all of the above?); is it out of our control or can it be diminished through education.

The other side of the coin of course is that if women are purely responding to male selection pressure and yet are generally unhappy, then by definition the men must be unhappy too; i.e. unhappiness seems unavoidable.

I wonder what we're supposed to look like in heaven, like we do when we die or 20 and gorgeous? the latter I bet ;-)

It's a way of keeping us marginalized. We obse...

2009-06-29T02:25:52.763-07:00

It's a way of keeping us marginalized. We obsess over a few extra pounds, an extra chin, etc., and spend our energy that way instead of on other bigger things. I don't know why we do it. I have completely internalized the message that I have to look as good as possible otherwise I won't be as highly valued. I know it's not good and I've explained to my daughter to please be more mature than I am and not care so much about stoopid things like 5 extra pounds.

Of course health concerns are very important but we get our knickers in a twist over a few extra pounds or a new wrinkle.

Steve, are you saying that men aren't obsessed...

2009-06-29T01:38:10.617-07:00

Steve, are you saying that men aren't obsessed with how women look? It seems like that to us (well, not all women perhaps, but some friends and I have had this exact discussion). Considering texts that have mainly male audiences, the women in men's pornography tend not to be average looking, nor have average bodies. I wonder how those sorts of women would sell in porn.

It does seem like women have completely internalised this, or else perhaps they are simply competing for access to best mates and lives for their children?

I'm not saying women aren't interested in how they look, but they seem to view it as an instrumental good, and not an intrinsic one, as seems evidenced by the fact that women don't wear makeup and push up bras when they are home for the evening, yk?

Why is it that women are so obsessed (relative to ...

2009-06-29T01:25:35.660-07:00

Why is it that women are so obsessed (relative to men) with the way they look?; I suppose from an evolutionary point of view you can certainly see the advantages i.e. outward looks indicating fertility and health etc. clearly a powerful subconscious force, but is that it?

I have a young daughter and am very aware about trying to keep such things in perspective, however often my Wife is very blatant (perhaps more realistic?) about it with her, often making appearance central to proceedings whereas I would tend to diminish the importance of it.

So the question is, judging from this project some women clearly aren't happy, but how much is nature and how much is nurture?