Nazi Germany celebrated Christmas without Christ with the help of swastika tree baubles, 'Germanic' cookies and a host of manufactured traditions, a new exhibition has shown.
The way the celebration was gradually taken over and exploited for propaganda purposes by Hitler's Nazis is detailed in a new exhibition.
Rita Breuer has spent years scouring flea markets for old German Christmas ornaments.
She and her daughter Judith developed a fascination with the way Christmas was used by the atheist Nazis, who tried to turn it into a pagan winter solstice celebration.
Selected objects from the family's enormous collection have gone on show at the National Socialism Documentation Centre in Cologne.
'Christmas was a provocation for the Nazis - after all, the baby Jesus was a Jewish child,' Judith Breuer told the German newspaper Spiegel. 'The most important celebration in the year didn't fit with their racist beliefs so they had to react, by trying to make it less Christian.'
The exhibition includes swastika-shaped cookie-cutters and Christmas tree baubles shaped like Iron Cross medals.
The Nazis attempted to persuade housewives to bake cookies in the shape of swastikas, and they replaced the Christian figure of Saint Nicholas, who traditionally brings German children treats on December 6, with the Norse god Odin.
85 comments:
What I have always found unpleasant is the hijacking of the luck symbol into the Nazi emblem. It's an old, old symbol, and has a decent real meaning.
But the Nazis did a lot of that.
Odd, is it not, how an ugly brown haired man with a bad haircut and a nauseating moustache could also change the word Aryan to mean blond haired and blue eyed. And that he was neither.
Propaganda was ever thus.
I agree Senor TT, from one view what the Nazis did was exactly like what the Militant Gay Movement is doing in America when it lobbies to change the legal meaning of the word marriage to mean not the giving of a young woman to a man, but the giving of any sex/sexual deviation to any other sex/sexual deviation.
It's shocking how propaganda is ever thus, isn't it?
"It's Springtime for Hitler and Ger-Ma-Ny, Winter, for POLAND and FRANCE!"
So, did the Coburg-Saxe-Gothas ever come up with a Springtime Plan for all of Europe? I have some ideas for them if they haven't, they could start by creating a Common Market.
Senor Trent, the swastika is a symbol of the Sun, nothing more and nothing less and nothing else.
It's pretty lucky for the people of earth if the sun rises every day, then the people are saved from death and destruction. Don't believe it? Try living in the outer solar system like I had to do when I was a kid, where you have to walk 3600 AU's to school in a vacuum every morning. It's no fun atall.
The only dialogue I will have with you, GW, is to continue to demand that you withdraw your appalling remarks and smut placed in this blog under another article. That failure to withdraw renders any and every opinion of yours invalid and irrelevant from my perspective.
You display bias, bigotry and venom, together with one of the filthiest sets of words I've had the misfortune to read in public. You display attitudes that right thinking people would cross the street to tar and feather you for.
Whatever your peculiar and particular set of internal issues are, you would keep a professional therapist in a life of luxury for decades.
In short the vile attitudes you display disgust and repel me. Thus, by association, you repel me because you are indistinguishable from your displayed vileness.
LIzzy, while Wikipedia is not an authoritative source, it has some interesting material about the swastika.
Senor Trent, you are the one hating on the in-laws of the Royal Family. I find your hatred and bigotry appalling.
Should we look through some old Royal Family Photo Albums? You Brits sure do a lot of pot-calling-kettle-black.
Not until the people put an end to the monarchy will I believe England is anything but a fascist welfare state.
Thank you Tim, that was indeed interesting; I am always keen to efforts to rewrite history since my own needs so desperately to have a better telling.
By the way, do you know where I can find some decent domestic help between the ages of 12 and 15? The old place is getting awfully dry and dusty; it's almost impossible to get a good virgin these days.
Thanks Tim for the wiki link. We are going to Cologne this weekend, and I'm going to go to the museum and check this collection out.
I think Vienna has better Christmas Markets, but Cologne is famous for them.
Wikipedia is very useful as a place of first resort for finding things out and discovering where to look for things.
Unfortunately, Lizzie, sourcing virgins is not what it's best for. BTW if you turn out to be bigot-boi under yet another name I shall be quietly upset.
Hmm, I was told the Nuremburg christmas market is the most famous inside Germany.
It doesn't bother me, they're all great when it snows and you've had enough gluhwein!
GW,
give it a rest will you - your bleating does get tedious when you have nothing new to offer.
Oh, I have to add I'm a bit jealous that you're going to Cologne - I love the city - so have a great time!
Yes, OJ, I'm going for the gluwhein drinking mainly. I love the way it's snowy/wintry and you stand outside drinking gluewhein from late morning onwards. I went to Achen one year but it wasn't very big. Cologne is easy to get to also.
Thank you for the complimentary remarks on my use of smut Tim. I do try, and so few appreciate it the way you do.
I aspire to compete with the Marquis, how am I doing? I'd started rewriting Sleeping Beauty but then found that Ann Rice had the same idea! Her tale is pretty hot too, at least the first part of it. There's no fisting in it though, thank heavens..that crosses the line with me.
You have me feeling postitively encouraged Tim! Thanks! I feel a bit like Mohammed Ali, floatin' like a butterfly n stingin' like a bee.
i've been reading this blog for ever so long and at long last i see something i can relate to.
i read the beauty series and story of o and handmaidens tale too Mr. GW and all of them were really really fun and literary. my literary professor said i was a perfect example of how art influences life right before he spanked me for plagiarizing a story i wrote for our erotic composition class at Berkely. the spanking wasn't too bad it was kind of fun but the chalk he used to draw the circle on the blackboard for my nose made me sneeze and i got really impatient standing there waiting for him to finish grading papers. all in all it was a good lesson though because i learned how to make my plagiarisms a lot more obvious from then on.
i find erotic literature so much more relevant and exciting than that boring stuff about mohicans and leaves of grass and ponds with stuffy names like walden and those stories about russian brothers killing each other. erotic literature puts me in the moment and i want to be a famous erotic writer someday.
right now im writing a story about how the girls in a pageant in a little southern town are trained for the court and throne you know the stuff the old dowagers put them through like making them dance in sheer hoopskirts while wearing black stockings and having to fetch biscuits and brown gravy for the old ladies and stand and walk a certain way and all that. and how this high yellow girl luella who is the godmother's personal assistant has to take the white girls to the barn and whip them with a single tail on cctv while the old ladies gorge themselves on biscuits and mint juleps and how the old ladies run the town through a black madam they have a contract with to get the scoop on the local politicians. its pretty good stuff i think for my first try.
i really like the scene in the barn where luella has to strip Juleps down to her black stockings and suspend her hands over her head and braid her long blonde hair that comes down to her bottom. Juleps prances like a pony during the whipping and the garden coven goes all orgasmic luella does such a good job of it. but then when they fall asleep covered in biscuit flakes and spilled gravy luella gets Juleps down and kisses her wounds and puts aloe on them and they run off into the woods together and catch a floating log and cross the river at free negro point and escape until they are both captured by a band of wild cajuns who carry them back to their village bound and draped across the necks of the horses of the two meanest cajuns.
the cajuns put them in a cockfight circle and have a lot of fun teasing the captives while the villagers watch and jeer and drink whiskey and beer and suck crawfish heads and generally have a high old time. Juleps and luella are put in a chicken coop and shiver through the night and hold each other and cry and console each other luella has to do most of the consoling cause Juleps is a rich methodist preachers daughter and she went to private school. they make it through the night though and they fall in love and luella makes Juleps a ring of chicken wire and then the village gets raided by the garden covens' sheriffs department and the deputies rape the girls before they take them back to the dowagers. they dont get in trouble though cause the godmother doesnt care there will be more girls next year and the year after all wanting to serve on the court or so they thing cause the dont know what really happens at rehearsals until they are locked behind the closed doors.
and i put in some stuff about a turf war between the charleston and savannah covens that spills over into mobile and a town like the one in my story its called Natchez but my story isnt about Natchez and any similarity to persons places or events is entirely coincidental. i didn't believe too much in coincidence till i came out here to Berkely and started writing my novel.
i hafta go now cause professor eckstien wants to discuss my new poem i wrote and how i got my ideas for it. it goes
"day by day we struck, nor breath, nor motion
as idle as a painted ship upon a painted ocean"
its my best poem ever and i feel so proud and i know hes going to give me an A and make me read it to the class. i like it when he makes me do that i feel like a real writer on that cnn book show where they read their books and make them sound so intellecul..intelicual...smart.
But to get back to the subject at hand...
I would love to see this exhibit. Please go, Elizabeth, and report back!
Yes, I will go and report back, Michigan Mom. If there's a gift shop or something, I'll get you something but honestly what would they be able to reproduce and sell from so repugnant a display?
I'll get you something a trinket from the markets anyway.
Wish I could enjoy enjoy Germany around the holidays again!!!
Have fun Elizabeth take some pictures I would love to see them
Don't forget to stock up on Glühwein mugs! They're well worth the €2 deposit and make great presents.
Hey, Tim Trent, is that a hint??
You know where they have great Gluwhein is Lidl. I had it at my Christmas party last year and my German and Austrian guests said it was delicious.
Hint? No. I have more than I need from Wien. We spent Christmas there about three years ago in the Hotel Sacher, and went to all the markets, walked miles round the city. And found where my father used to live before the Anschluss and his forced emigration to England in 1939.
So we have a pair of mugs from each of the markets, which is lovely. And we had an amazing time looking at the old Hapsburg palaces, riding on the trams, seeing the old suburban railways stations, too.
We even got helped with rail ticketing by a lovely Indian lady who lives there. She was a total stranger and saw us scratching our heads over what ticket to buy and came up and offered help. I never had the chance to even try to speak German to anyone, they all practiced their English on us.
It would take real imagination to think of stuff to sell in the gift shop at the National Socialist Documentation Centre.
Furry stormtroopers, anyone? Can't see them selling V2 replicas!
Oh man, mel, what an idea! It's hard to believe you are really a socialist! V2 bottle rockets for New Years!
Damn! Now that is an idea. All you Europeans could shoot them toward Mecca as show of welcome for the many immigrants flooding Europe.
miss elizabeth ma'am i would never say something mean so that was not me it was a mean wicked person pretending to be me probly cause they were jealous.
please don't think that was me i promise to be a very good girl always when i am here. i grew up in a trailer park but my mama did teach me manners and she never made me put on a tight red dress and go out with dirty old men like that girl in that country song Fancy.
my mama reads your blog to and she said she's going to clean the trailer up real nice and cook you and mr. thomas some gumbo when you come to natchez if you really do come and she said you can even use her rambler if you dont want to rent a car. its old but its clean and it still gets eight miles to the gallon so its really really fuel efficient for a 1962 car. my crazy uncle painted some chicken tracks on it but dont worry it gets lots of attention and people will come up and talk to you when you stop somewhere like Monmouth to eat supper.
i hope you believe me miss elizabeth it makes me sad people are so mean to me sometimes.
i like your daughter katie too and if she comes we can go swimming naked in the blue hole i do it all the time and sometimes i ride my pony naked too like the lady in the fairy tale. its really fun to do it bareback and i hope katie can be my friend and ride ponies with me she can ride lucky hes gentle and he likes people with funny accents cause he has one too.
if katie wants to and you dont care katie n me can take my new cadillac down to new orleans n go dancing can she shuffle i can shuffle real good i can do hardstyle to n girly shuffle i have some short dresses she can wear like the one kat deluna wears in whine up http://lomastv.com/player_s3.php?tlang_id=en&id=598
i have a new red one she can wear nobody has worn it yet n i will wear the green one we will look like twins but im 4'9 i think shes taller than me. its even more fun to wear these kat deluna dresses than being naked because you can go to clubs and they wont let you in if you are naked.
so thank you im sorry for that bad person who pretended to be me.
oh wait i have to apologize miss elizabeth i did do something wrong im really sorry n i promise i wont do it again.
i know it was me cause i dont see what i wrote about my boots. i dont remember everything i said my mama says i say stuff without thinkin too much about it and someday its gonna get me in trouble n i guess it did today.
please forgive me miss elizabeth i will go to confession and tell the priest and he will tell me what to do to make it okay with God. if you want me to do something to just tell me and i will cause im reallly very sorry i said something i shouldnt have said.
Elizabeth, I'm sorry to see that your blog has been suddenly invaded by that peculiar species of American Trailer Trash masquerading as human beings.
Unfortunately, there is not much one can do except delete the comments. Its really sad that such vitriolic hate speech has infested your small world.
Maybe if we're lucky that schizophrenic individual will find some other place to display his unfortunate lack of a heart, humanity, and intelligence with absolutely no manners or hint of being potty trained & civilised.
I am in perfect agreement Elizabeth. If people are allowed to express their real, individual opinions on this blog, and if those opinions differ from politely accepted, politically correct viewpoints that advance our view of society, then I am afraid I will no longer waste my time here.
The blog has become a free-for-all of individuality and bigotry; humorless, cold, and hateful.
This schizophrenic individual, diagnosed by medical professionals on this blog, should be locked up as a danger to himself (or herself, it's hard to tell which it really is) and to society. Dangerous, fundamental viewpoints are being expressed and illustrated in a unseemly way that might convince the weak-minded among us that alternate points of view are possible.
Society can only efficiently operate within narrow parameters; progressivism demands cohesion and this individual displays a total lack of affinity for the greater good of society.
im sorry mr. batz-castlemore really i am. we didnt always live in a trailer park when i was little we lived in a tent in a national park and the rangers took care of us but the dept of interior made us move so the rangers got us this trailer to help my mama she's got scoliosis real bad n her back is all bent up but she does work she makes pralines and sells them. it just doesnt pay too much since the city wont let her do it on the sidewalks where all the nice tourists are now they said it doesn't look good for a cripple trailer trash lady to be sittin on the sidewalk sellin stuff n violatin codes.
im tryin to learn to be a real person im goin to ucla berkley i got a scholarship cause my mama worked real hard with me so i could make something of myself n she is very proud im the first girl in our to go to college n the first liberal and the first one not to have a baby before i got out of high school
i read all the time about the evolutionary ladder n how intelige intelle smartness is bein able to adapt n i guess theres some hope cause i came from mississippi all the way to berkley on the bus and adapted to all that n my classes to i have a 4.0 except for english but thats okay my professors say a girl who looks like me doesnt need to know too much my economics professor says i have the most valuable commodity going at leat till im thirty or so
so maybe i can get up on the bottom rung of the ladder if i keep tryin real hard im sorry i offended you mr. batz-castlemore mama says to respect my betters n your better'n me and i do respect you
There's no need to over-react. There was too much baiting of gays in the comments section, and also if someone wants to read a long description about thigh boots rubbing up against skin, etc., then they can go to a porn site.
Actually, Elizabeth, I did was not "baiting" gays. I was expressing a point of view. How many times must I say I have no quarrel with gays, but I do have a quarrel with this "oh I'm a victim because I'm gay" attitude that does not let people speak plainly.
The blog has covered everything from photos of feces to naked daughters, I didn't think I was crossing any boundaries.
People who do not consciously interact with those things bubbling around in the sub-conscious often express both the subconscious element and the tension between what the subconscious desires to reveal and the conscious desires to conceal.
Consider this: the feces photo post and the naked daughter post both concerned your daughter. I would not have personally posted either of those things about a child of mine, but you did. Why would you do that?
You also did a post on the biological mechanics of disgust impulse; your own post backs up my point of view, which I have expressed, that some things are naturally disgusting because nature wishes us to avoid them. I'd put feces in that category, but nakedness as something purely natural and desirable.
Still, did you post about katie because you are proud of her freedom, or did you post for some other reason? Did you post about the feces because you found it so amusing, or because you have some desire to embarrass your daughter?
See, these are the sorts of questions that come into my mind when I read your blog. All things considered, I am a model of the unexpressed sentiment.
Literature is full of references, many classics contain it, of the sensual attraction some people feel to leather. Personally, I don't get it but some do.
We could go along saying this is a sophisticated blog read by people who've conquered all the sensual impulses and become masters of both their senses and the most direct route to fulfillment of desire, that the high minded progressivism expressed here has made a significant change in the world, but that would be a lie.
Further, I am almost daily the victim of extreme insult offered by people unable to discuss anything long enough to discover that on most points we are in agreement in the end. The high minded here are so much more interested in promoting their pet issues, usually related to some form of victimization, that they are unable to penetrate the deeper layes of any issue. I get bored, and when I get bored I get creative.
When people like Tim Trent challenge me, they had better be ready for what they ask for, because I will deliver, not in the way they do, but in well expressed logic. This is what Tim terms bigotry. I leave it to the dispassionate reader to examine this claim and decide for him or herself if it is true or not.
I am a red neck trailer trash Mississippi hayseed, bigoted, hate mongering son of a bitch according to some of your readers, and only once or twice have you ever offered any censure on my behalf.
But, in my non-blog life I work, using my money, not money collected by the governemnt, on issues such as race and immigration and gay acceptance. I just don't suffer fools and there are a lot of self-important fools on here.
Some of your readers have a predetermined view of anyone who does not toe the liberal party line, even if high humanitarian ideas are held.
Your readers are unable to explain these things:
what is good about socialism
why a woman has a right to choose what to do with her body
why gay marriage should be considered to have the same status as heterosexual marriag
and many other issues. Ya'll bring it up a lot, but there is no depth to your understanding; it is as if you are advertising your shallow understanding as some sort of club membership.
Veritas.
Ok, Marty, GW and all your other pathetic excuses for pseudonyms. It's time to grow up and go and get the help your psyche so badly needs. Use your money on that. This is not the place for you to work through your psycho-sexual tensions, nor to behave like a spoilt 10 year old with an advanced vocabulary of filth and smut.
Meanwhile I still call upon you to withdraw your original comment, and to stop seeking to inflame the situation you created of your own free will with pretty much every post you make.
Now, here is why I would not have done the naked daughter post.
I am pretty much the average man. The idea of your daughter naked in public is very titillating to me, as I am sure it is to the other guy on here that is not gay. And, you provided a picture.
Also, about this LGBT business. My character puss is pretty good when she is in top form. She can fool any man and make him drool, I have the emails to prove it. Where, do you suppose, does this understanding that allows me to cross gender come from? Not only does puss have her male admirers, she has female ones as well.
I've done a pretty intensive study of sexual attitude and orientation and I know a few secreta. Pity there is not enough perception here for the readers to realize it. Beyond the level where they sit is a level where all the issues involved seem humorous. In that level people can laugh at themeselves and the absurdity of the unnecessary conflict.
Where does the cross gender ability come from? Here is a shocker: the animas. http://www2.cnr.edu/home/bmcmanus/anima.html
Now, let us see if your gay supporters can extend to me the same courtesy they wish.
Before I began school, when I was about four, I would enter into a fugue state where I would perceive myself as both male and female. I could pick and choose; I could have the sentiments of one over the other.
Over the years, due to a family history similar to yours, I lost this ability and one or the other would be dominant. This reached a climax during my early twenties when I was certain I was supposed to have been a woman. I was in great distress, it was a horrible thing, my inner and outer lives were totally disconnected.
The gays here no nothing I do not, believe me. They've suffered nothing I have not personally suffered.
These days, I am back to the way it was before I began elementary school, minus the fugue state. This state has been talked about all through history as the blending of the masculine and feminine within each person; this is the subject of the da Vinci painting, not the Dan Brown speculations. da Vinci saw himself as male and female, he saw himself as the divine archetype and he painted himself in the last supper and in the mona lisa.
So it goes, sometimes when we think we know something, we don't.
Many homosexuals find transexuals and transvestites disgusting and view them with the same censure the heterosexual community views the gay community with.
So all the sissy gays are not bullshitting me, I've been in the fray and I know how it is, and if those on here are honest they will admit it. I've seen a woman with a beard and longshoreman arms castigate two cute little transvestites for being perverted- I've seen a lot more than that.
The world is what it is.
I'll quit dissing on gays when they quit dissing on transgenders Tim.
And they do diss Tim. Evidence is what happens here when I express my feminine side.
It was artfully done, perhaps too subtle for most of you to catch it.
My complaint that gays should keep sexual things private has not been supported by even the blog mistress herself.
But when my feminine side hints at sexual arousal, her post is removed.
Touche.
When I talk about gay abuse of children, the things some gays do (a high percentage), etc, so on and so forth, I speak from personal experience.
If it can be done it has either been done to me or I done it. This is why I find so much of what Tim has to say laughable.
Tim, you need to party some. You are wasting your gayness. You are about as ungay a gay person as I've ever run across.
It's a-ok to be gay. Quit hating yourself and blaming other people for it. And quit saying you can't help being gay because you haven't yet learned whether or not that is true, as many older people in the community could tell you.
Since I've gone this far, here's the rest.
From both a masculine and a feminine perspective I have a strong attraction to women. That is why you hardly ever hear me mention lesbians, I think of them as my sisters. The only ones I don't like are the real butchy ones that are really posing as being more butch than they are- I don't care for that at all.
I also don't like the leather queens who attack, rape, and sometimes kill young people. Believe it or not, there is an actual bar in New Orleans where these people hang out and trade things. I wouldn't go in there if any of you visit New Orleans. It is a pretty foreboding place and the people in it are pure evil.
Sexual arousal is equal to pornography? That is an interesting idea Elizabeth.
In reading the removed post I found myself carried away just a bit, and I enjoyed it, but then I welcome my sexuality and enjoy it whenever and wherever I may.
For me, pornography conflates with obscenity. I associate sexuality with sacredness, with the joy of sexual union I experience with my partner. So I do not see the removed post as offensive in any way. Just as nudity is natural, arousal is natural.
In all, I am amazed at this thread.
Tim, in your first post you said Nazis hijacked a symbol.
In my original post I say Militant Gays, who are actually Marcuse communists, hijack a symbol, the word marriage.
Is there any hatred or bigotry so far?
Marcuse advocated a return to polymorphous sexuality, or more properly technically, polymorphous pervesity. Marcuse advocated unlimited freedom to practice sexual paraphilia as the key to liberating civilization from the contraints imposed by capitalist cultures; this polymorphous sexuality doctrine is embraced by the far left radical gays who seek to change the meaning of the word marriage.
Is there any hatred or bigotry to this point?
Paraphilia are all those taboo sexual practices, barring none, that humans may engage in. That includes lust murder and cross-generational sexuality, neither of which I feel you would support because you cannot even discuss anal sex. So you and I are probably in agreement that polymorphous sexuality may not be the best way to liberate society.
Is there any hatred to this point?
As a man and as a woman, I see the union of my two halves as a sacred event, a marriage, I've given my feminine self to my masculine self.
Unindividuated male homosexuals do not have this high understanding, the acts they commit do no lie in the realm of the sacred but in the realm of the profane. Therefore, they do not deserve access to a term which signifies a sacred and worshipful event, marriage.
Marcuse communists, whose philosophy you are opposed to as it is based on the most extreme deviance man can muster, are the ones who want to equate the profane with the sacred; doing so, they believe, would destroy the idea of the sacred which is the basis of capitalism. Their desire is to destroy the nuclear family along with every other tradition of human civilization in order to bring about a liberated new world. They think they can do this by co-opting and hijacking the institutions and symbols of traditional culture, just as the Nazis attempted to do in order to create their Thousand Year Reign of a new world order.
Is there any hatred or bigotry in this?
If you understood all the elements you would not see me as bigoted, but as enlightened. I do not support unbridled sexuality that embraces any act a man or woman may do. Nor do you. We are in more agreement than disagreement, but you don't have the background to see this so I have to tolerate your petty whining.
Is there any hatred to this point?
GW,I can accept some of what you say, but not all of it.
As a lesbian woman I am guessing that you would say I am not engaged in a true marriage. I feel great joy in my relationships and I don't see why I shouldn't have the same kind of marriage as a straight woman.
Why do you say my sexuality is profane and yours is sacred? You put yourself above me when you do this.
With all respect, please explain.
GW, why do you even think I will enter into any discourse with you until you withdraw that first comment? There is not a chance. Whatever else you say is so much clutter, so much background noise, and, often, so much filth.
I cannot withdraw the first comment because it is all true and utterly without malice.
You, and Elizabeth, see malice because neither of you are able to see your individual selves beneath the projection of yourselves you attemtp to create, which is an amalgamation of general ideas held by the public. In other words, you do not individuate yourselves from that social network from which you draw your points of view.
This is seen in the frequent references the both of you make to conflict; individuation is a process of conflict resolution, an individuated person sees less conflict within himself and so projects less onto those around him.
It is the simple truth that the gay legal project, a Marcuse inspired communist project, aims, in their own words, to destroy all traditional culture by hijacking it and substituting opposite terms so they lose their meaning to the common mind.
Your social network has told you that because you are gay another part of society hates you; you've fallen for this. You champion this cause of victimization in spite of all rational discourse outlining the way in which it is done.
You insist that I submit to you on the grounds that you are gay and you are right. You've been taught that because you are gay you deserve special treatment because of the abuse gay people have suffered at the hands of traditional, conservative society.
So even though I tell you I have lived in the scene and know it well, that I come from a particular part of the scene you publically claim to support but most likely one on one do not support, you put me in that group of gay haters associated with conservative society because I have some conservative social and economic views. Even though I've made it quite plain I love that dress kat daluna wears and wish I had the body to get away with it.
This is the supreme irony to me, that you cannot see how much I support you, that we both are opposed to polymorphous perversity.
However, since you are unable to understand what I am saying, no matter how clearly I express it, in the interest of friendship I will withdraw the comment with regard to you and any considerations you have for it, though I intended it not at all in the way you received it.
I'd rather talk about kat's cute dress anyhow, and how nice it would be to be that young again and so full of life and such a yummy little morsel of amor caliente.
Tim, seriously, and I say this as a friend, why can't you be gay and be joyful instead of being gay and resentful?
So what if society frowns on you. It doesn't matter. What matters is that you so differentiate yourself from the opinion of others that you can live in the fullness of your individual self.
It happened in my life that I had gay friends I liked and admired and wanted to associate with who would not associate with me because of the cross gender issues. I was not one of them. I was something else, as, like most of the type, my attraction was to women and not to men. Still, there were those occasions when gay men were taken with me and did enjoy me and later felt great confusion because they saw they could relate sexually with femininity. And, you guessed it, it was these very friends who put me aside. So I do know what I am talking about, I've seen both sides of the spectrum.
I know exactly what a woman feels when she gives it up to some guy that then dumps her.
Another shocker:
I went for almost 15 years without having sex with anyone because I saw so clearly the dynamics being played out but could not at the time resolve my own inner conflicts.
Now that the conflicts are resolved, and I can express my femininity with a man's body, sex is again a joy and a delight and so much better than before because when I have sex with a woman I desire it feels like her body is mine and I know just what to do. It's great for both of us, and that is how it is supposed to be.
The ideal thing is that when two people go to bed together there are really four sexualities present, the masculine and feminine sides of both partners being fully expressed in a dynamic power exchange that gives first one and then the other dominance. Do this and you won't fight with your partner because there is nothing to fight about, no undifferentiated projections of your submissive sexuality trying to force itself out to get your attention.
N
Ava, I don't mean to ignore you, but answering you is going to take some time and I don't want to shortchange you and I am talking to Tim right now.
I promise I'll give you full attention when I've had some rest and I can offer you the explanation you ask for. There is one, but it is detailed and I want to make it concise as well as all inclusive.
TOTAL withdrawal GW. Not conditional, not partial, not targeted withdrawal. Total withdrawal. Only then will I discuss anything else at all with you.
And, if you are withdrawing it totally then Elizabeth may, at her sole discretion, choose to delete it and consider the other filth that has spewed from your posts onto this blog. And she may as well do the same with all related comments, too.
Ms. Ava we talked about the anima and animus in my psychology class here at berkley and its the sorta thing that can go right over your head if you dont have somebody like i do to illustrate it to you in stuff like drama plays. that helps a lot cause you can take one thing and make it the object of the play and act out what it does n sometimes it does stuff on its own and then bam! you understand what it means.
its like with me n prof. eckstein he helps me a lot he can see things about me i cant see and he comes up with ways to let me see it on my own. it hasta involve every part of you tho because it involves all of you n you have to be able to give in to it.
Now we encounter yet another problem Mr. Trent, and that is that whether you no it or not you are trying to Dom me and I know that game inside and out. You are demanding, essentially, that I beg your forgivenss and that is not going to happen firstly because I have done nothing to be forgiven for and secondly, it is completely against my nature to allow anyone, man or woman to Dom me.
You will not give me the courtesy of even reading seriously all I have gone to great effort to write and my writing is high quality here, knowledge and experience based, I could write a small book on just this topic but it would take about six months and you wouldn't read it anyway since you won't read seriously a few blog posts.
I bare my soul to you and ask for your friendship and offer mine and you try to Dom me. That's not very fair and it's not going to happen.
Besides, I am not even sure what it is about my comment you want me to apologize for (I might do it if I knew) because all you've said about it is that as a gay male you are offended. I am offended all the time and ask no apoligies; however, to make sure I go every reasonable inch with you, tell me in very specific terms how I have offended you.
Where do I get my popcorn?
This thread is in dire need of Occam's razor, trolls to the left please...
If Elizabeth wants to compeletely delete my abundant posts she is certainly free to do so. I don't feel my posts are full of smut, though I have addressed issues that make people uncomfortable, even when they claim to champion those same issues.
Do you support homosexuality without supporting all homosexual acts? Do you see what I mean here?
Because if you support say, gay kissing, but don't support fisting, you are excluding part of the community. You have indicated to me that there is a part of your own community you condemn for its sexual practices.
Occam's Razor:
If a descriptive term is applied to the hijacking of one symbol, it can also be applied to the hijacking of another symbol.
If A=B, and B=C, then A=C.
If changing the meaning of the swastika is equal to burning people in ovens,
then:
Changing the meaning of the word marriage is equal to burning people in ovens.
Pure, simple, correct logic.
I know, Steve. I am getting complaining emails now about this thread. Sorry! I guess you'll have to go over to OJ's blog and see what's happening in Reading today.
I just got this note from a reader: "Maybe send him a personal message that we are very disappointed in his choice to blather on. He should find a group who agree with him and stop bothering the rest of us?"
That's fine with me Elizabeth. If your readers cannot understand elementary logic, then this is not the place for me.
Bye.
Some freethinker you are.
GW, I'm not sure if you are talking to me or just "talking", it's hard to tell?
But let me set you straight on this "logic" thing, "marriage" is not a symbol in the same way that "A" is a mathematical symbol, this is a fallacy of equivocation in fact there are two such fallacies in what you say; first there is the different meanings of the word "symbol" and then there is the more classic fallacy of equivocation, here is an example so you can see what I mean,
Historical leaders that had a moustache included Hitler (A=>B), Hitler was evil (B=>C), therefore everyone with a moustache is evil, i.e. A=>C which is of course wrong.
Anyway I thought you were a pantheist, why would you consider marriage sacred, and why give a shit about gay people, it all sounds pretty Leviticus to me?
Anyone who finds this thread tedious doesn't have to read it. There are about a billion other posts on this site.
Steve, a swatiska is a symbol that stands for the sun.
The word marriage is a symbol that stands for the union of male and female.
The word marriage can be drawn and a the idea swasitka can be written.
If one equates changing one symbol with Nazism, why can't this same equivocation be applied to all symbols that are changed for political reasons?
Here is the reason, it is also a Marcusian idea: it's called repressive tolerance and what it means is that those favoring leftist ideologies will practice negative tolerance of ANY idea not in their domain. Look it up Bone Boy.
So, Gay Tim can say changing the swastika from a symbol meaning the sun to a symbol meaning socialism, which is why the legs were reversed on the swastika, is a bad thing, but changing the meaning of the word marriage is a good thing, when they both involve the same damn thing: changing the meaning of an honored symbol for political reasons.
What's more, why does Tim dislike the changing of the swastika? It still looks like the old one, only it is now also two crosses "s's", standing for "Socialism", the same as the crossed "s's" of the SS lightening insignia. Aren't you folks in favor of socialism?
Yes, you are, but you are all so unidviduated you can't do anything but groupthink. You are parrots. Swatiska is bad, Swatiska must mean burning jews in ovens, Swatiska must stand for oppression- how is that Nazi socialism is any less repressive than British socialism?
The one difference is Hitler burned Jews and England assists in burning Muslems in Iraq and Afghanistan. Look up some of the pictures of the hospitals during the conflicts, all the burned and limbless babies and children. England is just as bad as Germany. That's because it is the same goddamned people backing the operation in the middle east as financed the war in Europe in the thirties and forties, and those people are the ones who run the European central banks.
You are all such a goddamned bunch of panty wearing hypocrites I don't want to be associated with you. Idiots!!!!
Now listen, I've been sexually active since I was 4. A woman who lived in my grandparent's apartment house would dress me in her daughter's clothes and treat me really special and then perform oral sex on me. This went on for months.
Then, my parents allowed a friend of theirs to have access to me and my sister. He would pay us to sit in his lap while he fondled us, and after my parents passed out drunk he would come into our bedroom and do oral sex on us.
Then when I was 11 I was introduced to gay sex by an older gay man, whose friend later raped me.
As a child I wanted to be a girl so I could feel special like I saw my sisters being treated, the way the woman treated me when she dressed me in her daughter's clothes.
I lived in the gay scene in New Orleans and dressed in drag and had lovers who were gay and who were lesbian.
I was evaluated for gender change but in the end rejected it, even though I was suicidal at times because I wanted to be a woman.
Only three of my lovers in over two dozen have been straight.
Now I am a normally oriented straight male.
I have earned the right to criticize the gay community when it is dishonest and when it is ignorant.
I have had my car crashed into by redneck gay haters, and I have been beaten up and been hit with a coke bottle thrown from a car in New Orleans when I was in drag.
There, that is my story and it is the truth. In the end, all of these experiences have given me a great love for humanity, even for the people who used me sexually as a child. I forgive them any harm caused to me.
So don't call me a bigot.
I'm not one.
Gee, that was refreshing. I never told the whole thing to anyone before. Now I am as naked as katie was.
I do not know how to comment about your up bringing. I am sorry you were abused sexually as a child.
On the basis of what you have said, and assuming Anonymous to be GW/Mart/the cast of thousands, I will stop insisting, but will simply request that you withdraw the earlier remarks.
We may not have control over some appalling circumstances of our lives, but we do take responsibility for our actions later.
I'm glad that you have this off your chest at last and hope that it truly is of some use to you having done so. I'm not sure that the venue was appropriate, but, if it has served a real purpose, then fine.
I withdraw any and all offensive remarks Tim. I am truly sorry. It is okay now, thanks.
Do we get a group hug now?
Sorry, I don't believe in interspecies hugs Mr. Oranjepan.
So it's just 'wham, bam, thank you man'?
Are we co-conversationalists just objects for your personal gratification?
I am sorry Mr. Oranjepan, here's your hug *hug*.
We are co-donversationalists. I was only kidding about fur aversion, well, partially that is.
To all Freethinker Readers:
Above I said, under aliases, that I am now a normally oriented straight male. That would be true if it were not for the fact that I am a tg girl- that is, a transgender girl. I've known this since before I started elementary school.
Because tg's are looked down upon by both the gay and straight community I had to adopt survival mechanisms, one of them being the ability to play different roles in life, hence the aliases. These roles allowed me some freedom of expression as I could retreat from one position to another like a guerilla warrior, take my shots and escape detection. I could, as I have done hear, express my feminine self in these ways, at least enough to keep from exploding.
However, after finally realizing it is not going to get better unless I deal with it completely, as I have advised Mr. Trent to do with his gayness, I am here and now, in front of anyone with a computer and google, "coming out" as they say.
I might as well because it is going to be pretty obvious within the year. I am a tg girl who is entering the first phases of sexual reassignment. And I feel happier and more peaceful than I have ever felt in my life.
So, all of you, forgive the butchness I've had to adopt to get through life. I've been called a fag and a sissy and a queer since about the third grade, all through upper elementary, junior high and high school. I never had a girl friend in high school and didn't have sex with a girl till I was 19 and then it was a sort of hot lesbian affair with an open minded cowgirl.
I have only had 5 female sexual partners, that is, I have only penetrated 5 females in my life and though I like to do it somewhat it has to be a certain kind of very feminine girl who understands what I am inside. Three of these girls were that type, all bi or lesbians. The two straight ones were my Vietnamese girlfriend who to me turned out to be as sexually interesting as a bowl of holy water, and my last wife with whom I did make an effort but just wasn't "UP" to it.
So, all of you can call me Marty for the time being, or you can call me Liah. It's up to you. I prefer Liah.
Any questions?
And before any of you get the wrong idea, don't even begin to think this means I have turned into a liberal or a socialist. Nope!
I'm a true free market voluntarist female capitalist. Fear me. heheh!
And i'm not so sure giving all women the right to vote was a good idea. i think only women with property should have the right to vote. if it were this way more women would be encouraged to acquire property instead of latching onto some man's property.
i don't think non-property owning men should be able to vote either. the reason for this is that non-property owners historically vote to take the property of those like me who face incredible odds and sacrifice to acquire in pursuit of self sufficiency.
it's a pity i didn't come out earlier in life, i would have been a much better Republican candidate than Sarah Palin. the Republicans could have got the female angle and the tg angle; they could have one-upped the Democrats who never have supported the tg community very well, only giving us lip service.
so, they would have had the "first woman" and the "first tg" and i know enough about religion that i could have mollified the Moral Majority.
talk about a killer ticket, Ron Paul and liah!
I have a cousin I value highly who is an M2F transsexual lady, Liah.
Thank you for the support Tim. :)
We are who and what we are. It is far better to be able to say so freely and then get on with living our lives.
For you your identity as a girl trapped inside a male body is more all consuming than being gay is for me. Yet the 'trick', if such it is, is to get on with living a full and normal life, neither displaying one's sexual identity nor hiding it unless it is necessary to do either.
There is a 'gosh I am the only one like me' phase, at at that point you are. There is no-one like you. But that passes into normality.
You will understand in time that you are normal, simply with the wrong accoutrements. What you do with those accoutrements is a matter only for you.
My cousin chooses to have had breast enlargement and facial hair removal (which has not been a cosmetic success and has left her face pockmarked and scarred), but wishes to leave the penis and testicles intact because she enjoys sex and does not want to risk losing the sensations she likes. She does not view the penis and testicles to be male or female, just as 'useful'.
Others differ widely from her views. But that is personal. Only you know what you need to do to achieve contentment.
Tim, you really do know don't you?
I went through the 'im the only one' phase when i was five or six.
at that time it was a secret treasure to me. i had this delightful secret and i was dead certain i was the only one like me in the whole world. it gave me a very warm feeling.
i do know that i am normal. im just a girl in a male body. so im going to change my body.
ive tried it the other way and nothing good ever happened. ive been thinking about doing it since i was 18 but i couldnt afford it. now i can so nothing is stopping me.
:)
and in case anyone is wondering,i used to be very pretty.
i can be pretty enough for someone my age so ill be happy with that.
it was because i was so pretty i had so much trouble with men.
you can have a completely normal sex life Tim. It is just a question of money. look here: http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/SRS.html#anchor104946
I know some post-op girls no one would ever suspect had ever been anything but what they look like. it's reverse discrimination! :)
you can have a completely normal sex life Tim. It is just a question of money. look here: http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/SRS.html#anchor104946
I know some post-op girls no one would ever suspect had ever been anything but what they look like. it's reverse discrimination! :)
I'm not sure about the name 'Liah' and all your talk of behavioural urges - it makes it sound like your pant(ie)s are on fire...
Mr. Oranjepan, you are the first person on this blog to actually offend me. I show a vulnerability and you go right for it. I should have known.
That's okay, I can still be as bitchy as I need to be deal with idiocy. That's not going anywhere either.
If you have to know, I have next to no interest in sex. What other people get from sex I get from elsewhere. So no, my panties aren't on fire.
Typical man. I bet you don't get much do you?
I have another question Mr. Oranjepan. Were you in the crowd that called for Jesus to be crucified?
Just so the women here know, an assertive woman who understands her power who does not mind using her sexuality to enhance her power is a nearly undefeatable force.
Just make it a habit to ask for exactly what you want in each and every interaction and then Demand the terms be kept. Few men can resist a dominant woman if she lets them feel they are winning.
winning by giving in to her I mean.
See ladies, the old adage that women have half the money and all the muffins is totally true. Use that knowledge to your advantage.
What most women don't know about someone who has a penis is that having a penis is a very painful condition. Those things can swell painfully, and what is more, under the right conditions of frustration cause the testicles to swell and painfully bruise. That pressure must be released. That is why you get all those fancy pronmises till you give it up.
It's okay to give it up, but I wouldn't make a habit of doing it more than once every two weeks.
That will keep all the pumps primed and your needs will suddenly have more value to the penis holder you are engaged with.
The woman I admire most on this blog is the departed Lisa. She is a worthy adversary, she uses her natural instincts and forcefully applies them to her interactions with others.
I would not be a bit surprised if in whatever field she works she enjoys a high level of success. I have never seen a man on here oppose her. If she says something, they just agree with what she says. You go, Lisa.
I don't think one needs adversaries, Liah. I think one needs friends.
And yes, I do know, insofar as my cousin has allowed me to understand.
You are right Tim, one needs no adversaries, and with care adversaries need not arise, unless from malicious intent on the part of one who would be adversarial. Even that can be controlled over time, there are many historical examples of this being done on a collective national level.
Thank you for supporting me and being my friend Tim. I'm pleased as pie!
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